Question by Ni Ten Ichi Ryu: Why do certain people still propogate old Apartheid ideas and lies in the South Africa Travel section?
Two participants in particular, one now suspended who was never resident in South Africa but admittedly worked with the former Apartheid governmentand and the other, an ex pat who also served under the old apartheid defence force, now on his 6th incarnation continue to post old aparthied ideas and blatant racist rhetoric here.
One of the question posed expounded the idea of an impending “Night Of The Long Knives” type civil war. The idea that a war is brewing is another racist myth that saw the light of day under the old Apartheid regime who spread the propaganda of “Die Swart Gevaar” and that is still being spread by certain sectors of the old population who supported the white supremacy ideals of the old government. The “Night Of The Long Knives” is another fallacy atributed incorrectly to Siener Van Rensburg by those on the far right. There is no evidence of this in the recorded visions and it has proved that this is a blatant and fabricated lie.
Another question posted merely repeats the old “Rooi Gevaar” idea the NP were fond of using against the ANC. The ANC has never been a Communist party although many of it’s members received training in the USSR.
Though they received training in the USSR it hardly makes them Communist. The reason they received training from the USSR was that the United States was supportive of the former Apartheid government and would not provide them with training to counter the oppressive NP regime’s tactics against those who opposed them. The United States supported the NP government in order to combat the growing Communist threat and were willing to overlook the oppression of the greater part South Africa’s citizenry so as not to lose ground to Communism. Thus the ANC was forced to look to the USSR to train them.
The ANC are listed as a Social Democratic party. Although receiving training in the USSR, even though they wanted to the ANC cannot introduce Communism into South Africa due to the economic system of the country.
Socialism is not a political ideology but an economic system.
Socialism was not started by Lenin and was started before Communism, so how can it have started from hard core Communism as some suggest?
A common mistake is to confuse Socialism, the economic system, with Communism, the political system.
True Socialism has little to do with with the mob mentality and criminal redistribution of wealth.
Bernard Crick’s “In Defence Of Politics” (Continuum Books) provides a thorough explanation of Socialism.
The Social Democratic ideaology is a political one that emerged in the late 19th century out of socialism. Unlike socialism, which aims to replace the capitalist system entirely, social democracy aims to reform capitalism in order to remove its perceived injustices.
The fact that many members of the ANC are Communist party members also do not mean the ANC is a Communist party – merely that members of it are. The old apartheid ideas mentioned in the question are stated. No mention has been made of crime or violence in this question. Nor of AIDS.
It is indeed the right of all South Africa citizens to question the government.
Mention of the old South African defense force is made in the context of certain sectors of said defense force being used to implement many of the injustices of apartheid against those who stood against the oppressive ideals of the former government.
When one man kills another he is a murderer. But dress him up in a uniform and accompany his killing with trumpets and he becomes a hero.
The childish name calling always seems to issue from the mentioned user first, as do the personal attacks. However this is normally accompanied by statements like, “This is not an insult, I’m merely calling you what you are.”
This question deals specifically with two previous questions posted recently – no others. The only satisfactory answers to the user you mention are the one’s that agree with his viewpoint. Valid points are raised but they are surrounded by overgeneralizations, exaggeration and certain ideologies in keeping with much of the rhetoric of former NP members.
No form of violence is acceptable. However, those who often raise the point that the ANC were a terrorist organization conveniently forget that for 49 years the ANC, which was based on Gandhi’s Satyagraha (non-violence) practicing Indian National Congress, was a non-violent organization. Only after using non-violent means in approaching the government over the course of those 49 years to stop oppression of non-white South Africans and meeting with violent action against them did the ANC then form its military wing. This does not condone their actions. In departing from non-violence the ANC came to resemble the monster they fought.
Answer by unreal hero
Firstly to address the “ANC communism” comments.
Many members did receive Soviet training. This does not, as you mention, make them communists. However, the fact that many of them belong to the Communist party does – this is no covered-up secret, it is a pure and simple fact.
With regards to “old Apartheid ideas” being propogated:
This is hardly the case. The individual you describe, Brad Morris (why don’t you mention his name I don’t know), has posted several questions regarding violent crime and the governments failure in certain situations such as the current AIDS epidemic which is threatening to destroy the country.
In which way is this lying about South Africa? Is it not true that we officially have the highest crime rate in the world? Is it not true that the government has failed miserably in helping its citizens with AIDS? Is it a lie that criminals seem to have better human rights than law-abiding citizens? Answer that.
Crime and AIDS know no race divisions and similarly Morris’ questions held firm for all races. Furthermore, as far as I gather, when Morris was still staying in Hillbrow, he dated a non-white person which should be evidence enough that he is not racist.
By questioning the actions of government, you are exercising your democratic right which was granted by the fall of apartheid. It would be more admirable to defend your viewpoint from a factual point of view rather than taking the easy way out of calling someone a racist just because they are upset at the road which their country seems to be taking.
Additionally, what are you hoping to achieve by explicitly mentioning that Morris was “an SA defence force member”? The SA defence force was an outstanding group of individuals and they should be remembered as brave men. I salute those who put their lives on the line in what can be described as one of the world’s most disciplined and well-trained military units.
As of yet, no-one as been able to answer Morris’ queries in a convincing manner without resorting to childish name-calling and personal attacks. (On a different note, this is similar to George W. Bush’s detractors – yourself included here)
No-one has provided answers that have been able to counter what he has said regarding crime and AIDS.
It is only through questioning that the necessary action may be forced to be taken.
I think that you gave a well reasoned answer but it does contain flaws. You mention that you stay in the EC and have not been threatened, burgled or attacked. You are an extremely fortunate individual. Looking at my own experience in the last 5 years only, I have been broken into twice, a third attempt stopped, a car was hijacked, there has been two foiled car theft attempts, a family member was held up at gunpoint and my cell phone has been stolen three times. I am far from a unique case, many South Africans have fallen victim to the same and indeed much worse.
You mention that the reason for violent crime is ” poverty, lack of education and lack of respect caused by the policies of the national party government.” Please, surely you jest?
That may explain petty crime but violent crime is a complete other story. Should someone go rape their neighbour’s child because they wish to protest Apartheid? Should a man go and beat to death a family with a hammer because he has no money in the bank. Should a grandmother be raped and tortured because someone did not receive an education? I’m sure you are forced to agree that this should not be the case.
Also, going off the point here a bit, but the attack in New York was on the WORLD Trade Centre. It was not only an attack on America but on the nation’s of the world. People from countries all over the globe died that day, think about that.
The Loving…. :
You failed to answer my questions addressed towards you which merely serves to further illustrate that no-one has effectively answered Morris’ questions on crime, AIDS and government lack-of-action.
You say that “No mention has been made of crime or violence in this question. Nor of AIDS” yet in your additional details you say that “certain members continue to post…..” so you are in fact referring to past questions and not merely the “communist ANC” question. Hence that is the reason I brought into discussion the crime, AIDS, etc questions that Morris asked previously.
You also state that “When one man kills another he is a murderer. But dress him up in a uniform and accompany his killing with trumpets and he becomes a hero”:
So does bombing Wimpys where innocent people were seated make you a murderer or a hero?
Add your own answer in the comments!